Crossposted at New Voices
With one day left of school now, I feel I must reflect. What they say about this school is true, you know — people really do sleep in the library, and it is hard to make friends. Really, two of my only friends here include the rabbi and the Catholic priest. It’s kind of interesting. They actually give me advice in life. For example, they agree with me when I want to graduate a semester early or do a Jewish Studies major instead of a Religious Studies major. And you know? Sometimes it’s good to have people occasionally reinforce your crazy ideas when no one else will.
I do have other friends; they just tell me I should wait to graduate and stick with a more marketable major. Nonsense! I know what I want in life. There are lots of things I could do next spring if I graduated early—why do I need to be here? Behold: there’s Pardes, WUJS, the Conservative Yeshiva, I could intern at a Jewish non-profit, I could move to New York. I could do a lot of things.
But you know what I hate? I’m chained. Why? Wherever I pick, I ought to be thinking about staying there for a couple of years. That’s what converting does. You have to pick a place and stay there. If I want to intern in Washington, DC next summer, the first thing I think is: “What if I finally find a good community there? Should I just stay and convert and just take the old Amtrak to school a couple days a week? Is that hasty? But I wanted to live in New York! (whine)” I’d feel like a bad candidate if I went to a rabbi going “I like this place, but I want to go to Israel in a year and maybe go backpacking and never come back, sorry.” (You get the feeling you can’t be Jewish and on the go.) It almost makes me not want to live in a city I know I probably don’t want to live in forever…even just to intern. And that’s a little morbid.
I don’t think those conversion books mention the horrid period of gestation wherein you’re in between “making the decision” and telling your rabbi about it. (For me, there is no rabbi.) I think I’m there. And it’s disorienting. It’s disorienting when everyone around me is telling me that it’s not so bad. It is bad. The only people who agree are an Orthodox rabbi and a Catholic priest.
But alas, there’s an even darker side of conversion. I’m glad I got so many comments on my last post, but I started to see something that I sort of latently suspected anyway. When you convert, as you may know, you have to pick a denomination. If you’re not sure which, a good way to decide is to pit them against each other and make bad jokes and tongue-in-cheek observations about the ones you think you may not like. It doesn’t matter if they’re exaggerations or caricatures; that’s good! Conservatism is a country club! Orthodoxy hates women! If you’re wishy-washy, how can you ever pick one? And remember—you have to pick one.
Do you see what’s happening here? I can’t just pick an Orthodox conversion. I must implicitly say in turn that non-Orthodox conversions are invalid—otherwise, why would I go through the trouble? I must say there’s something wrong with the others; that those with liberal practices are metaphysically doing it wrong. No matter how I feel about that, there must be absolutes in conversion.
I think it’s hardest for Orthodoxy because Reform can use theology to get out of the argument, and Conservatism can use certain platforms such as egalitarianism, but once I pick Orthodoxy I must also be giving up anything good there might be in Conservatism. I must implicitly be saying that I don’t believe in women’s rights, right? Or that I agree with all the theology that guides Orthodox practice.* Someone once told me I didn’t seem “at peace” with my decision. I agree. I can’t be, because no denomination is a pure, unalloyed Judaism. There are good and bad features about each. I don’t like the idea of settling into a denomination. I’m picking the best option. I mean, geez, there’s only three (or four, for you sticklers…and two already accept me).
Picking Orthodox over Conservative was one of the hardest (yet clearest) decisions I’ve had to make, but in a sense it doesn’t matter that I’ve made the decision. My theology is the same! I don’t suddenly hate liberal Judaism. A friend asked me how I could still stand to go to JTS after I’d just said Conservatism is so wrong. You know what’s wrong though? The fact that I had to come up with a list of things that are wrong with liberal Judaism in order to justify my decision to convert to Orthodoxy. I stand by my list, but look at the divisions it causes! Conversion can do that. Conversion makes you pick one. It makes you pledge allegiance to that denomination—forever.
*I don’t mean Sinai. Hasidic thought, frighteningly, guides some normative practices regarding women.
“I can’t just pick an Orthodox conversion. I must implicitly say in turn that non-Orthodox conversions are invalid—otherwise, why would I go through the trouble? I must say there’s something wrong with the others; that those with liberal practices are metaphysically doing it wrong. No matter how I feel about that, there must be absolutes in conversion.”
Why?
Why can’t you say that you find truth at X, another finds truth at Y, and each is doing the best that she can?
Because conversion doesn’t have the same rules as a born Jew simply practicing. That’s the point of this post. A born Jew can move gracefully between the denominations, but a convert doesn’t always have it so easy. Converting Reform means you’re REFORM now. You can’t truthfully call yourself Conservative now with a change in ideology like a born Jew can; you need another conversion. Same with Conservative and, I suppose, divisions in Orthodox. You can’t just pick “Judaism.”
That being said, once you pick a denominations people often wish to know why. I think it’s hardest to choose between Conservative and Orthodox, because as similar as they are, Conservative is still “liberal Judaism” and Orthodoxy and still “Orthodox.” There is an undeniable divide, and a convert is expected to pick sides. It’s hard to explain to someone who doesn’t find himself tottering on the fence between those two.
I don’t think there has to be absolutes. There are people who have had more than one conversion who didn’t feel there are absolutes. There are different places where you belong at different times in your life.
There are some good points made here, I think.
http://www.kvetchingeditor.com/2009/03/why-am-i-converting-orthodox_31.html
http://www.kvetchingeditor.com/2011/11/gam-zu-ltovah-i-no-longer-am-consistent.html
But it’s such an identity-pummeling hassle!
Yes, it can be an identity crisis some of the time. I agree completely. The labels drive me insane sometimes.
You are using the word Orthodox as if it is a very absolute term. What is Orthodox? It covers so many different communities–some more open-minded than others. I grew up in a Maimonidean rational home where many of the practices/beliefs of the rest of the Orthodox world were seen as irrational, mystical, unintelligent and somewhat false. I broke away from my home mentality (in the sense that I’m less convinced of my truth) but still call myself Orthodox while disagreeing with a lot of ideas that most Orthodox people have (i.e., that there’s a small piece of God inside everyone of us or that segulot have real meaning). What I mean to say is–what if you accepted Orthodoxy as the 13 ikkarim of the Rambam? or those of Rasa”g? The denomination you choose to call yourself is more of a practical name than the true essence of your belief. Would an Orthodox rabbi/community deny you conversion if you state your beliefs like those of some Rishon’s fundaments of faith and your practice to mirror the Shulkhan Arukh?? (as explained by any ‘Orthodox’ rabbi–some are more feminist-friendly. )
Converting Reform means you’re REFORM now. You can’t truthfully call yourself Conservative now with a change in ideology like a born Jew can….
Sure you can. So long as your conversion included a beit din, mikvah and hatafat dam brit (which I think the vast majority of even Reform conversions do these days, at least based on the people I’ve talked to and things I’ve read on ye olde internets), you can daven in a Conservative shul, become a member, et cetera. The rabbi would probably want to talk to you and establish that your conversion did in fact include the stuff mentioned above, but if it did, you’re golden. Because those are the only things that are really, truly mandated by the Torah for a conversion to be valid. All of the other stuff, when it comes down to it, is window dressing and an attempt to try and ensure that someone is integrated into a Jewish community so that they won’t just peace out and head for the local Episcopal church or something when the novelty wears off. That’s a good and important thing to do, incidentally, but I would argue that it’s not specifically required by halacha at all; when you look at the halacha on conversion (and on the question of who is a Jew in general), the bar is actually extremely low.
And likewise, as someone with a Conservative conversion, while I tell people I practice Conservative Judaism (well, people who know enough to know what I mean when I say that), I’m just a Jew. I’m not a Conservative Jew or a Reform Jew or whatever else- I’m a Jew, and that’s it. Sometimes I go to a Reform shul, sometimes I go to a Conservative one, sometimes I go to an Orthodox one- personally, whether the people at Chabad, say, choose to consider my conversion valid really has nothing to do with me. I know my own status, and Hashem knows my status. Beyond that, the Orthodox view of my conversion doesn’t matter unless/until I want to join an Orthodox shul or marry someone who’s Orthodox. In that situation, yeah, then I’d need a “new” conversion, but to me, that becomes an issue that’s more procedural than religious, because if I were going to be marrying an Orthodox guy or paying dues at an Orthodox shul, the issues that helped keep me from pursuing an Orthodox conversion in the first place (namely egalitarianism) would, presumably, be resolved, and I would be observing to Orthodox standards and in agreement with Orthodox theological positions, anyway. Granted, the lack of egalitarianism in Orthodox synagogues actually works in a female convert’s favor in this case, since you’re not going to be offered an aliyah or counted in a minyan, anyway.
Personally, in an age where even born Jews are having their Jewish bona fides disputed by various rabbinates and being told they need to provide generations’ worth of documentation to “prove” their Jewishness, the fact that XYZ person or group wouldn’t consider me Jewish doesn’t bother me much, because the same could be said of a lot of people all over the religious spectrum, both converts and born Jews. And the fact that a particular denomination wants to dispute my Jewishness doesn’t make me any less a Jew. I don’t think some anti-Semitic dirtbag who wants to throw a brick through a synagogue window is going to check the denomination of the synagogue first and go, “Oh, well, that’s a Conservative synagogue- better go find an Orthodox one, since these people aren’t really practicing Judaism.”
Diplogeek is right about Reform/Conservative. As long as your Reform conversion followed Conservative halacha, Conservative automatically considers it an acceptable conversion and you are welcome in both communities. It’s a long-standing agreement between the two movements.
As long as your Reform conversion followed Conservative halacha, Conservative automatically considers it an acceptable conversion and you are welcome in both communities.
As I understand it, just as Conservative conversions can’t normatively be accepted by the Orthodox (see this guy for details), because at the time of conversion the candidate will have accepted a “different level” of halacha (i.e. driving on shabbat), they don’t accept it even if the candidate is practicing. The kabbalat ol hamitzvot wasn’t acceptable.
Same with Reform (only more so, there is a bigger divide)—when a candidate is converted by Reform, he doesn’t (and can’t according to the Reform platform itself) accept the authority of the body of halacha, therein it would be invalid (i.e. if a Reform conversion actually follows Conservative halacha, it wasn’t a Reform conversion).
That’s my take on it, anyway.
What is Orthodox?
Yes, that is a problem. Here, I’m usually using it to mean Modern Orthodox.
What I mean to say is–what if you accepted Orthodoxy as the 13 ikkarim of the Rambam? or those of Rasa”g? The denomination you choose to call yourself is more of a practical name than the true essence of your belief.
That is a good point, and I think practical reasons are what’s dividing Conservative from Orthodoxy for me, in a sense—ideology aside, most Conservative Jews aren’t really practicing. I know there are exceptions. I also know this is a widespread problem. (It’s infamous in the Conservative movement.) That would get to be a problem eventually.
Would an Orthodox rabbi/community deny you conversion if you state your beliefs like those of some Rishon’s fundaments of faith and your practice to mirror the Shulkhan Arukh??
I don’t entirely understand this question. If I had the rishons’ fundamentals of faith and followed the shulhan aruch, would they want me? Sure!
Because those are the only things that are really, truly mandated by the Torah for a conversion to be valid.
I always assumed a basic acceptance of halacha’s authority was also in order. Perhaps I should re-read my sources.
I guess this would be the problem with Reform conversions:
Do you willingly accept punishment for transgressing the lenient and harsher commandments we have explained to you when you accepted the religion of Israel? – ‘Yes.’
Which I found here…
I still feel like I’m taking a very lenient approach, compared to some other who require years of study. That’s not in Torah.
And likewise, as someone with a Conservative conversion, while I tell people I practice Conservative Judaism (well, people who know enough to know what I mean when I say that), I’m just a Jew. I’m not a Conservative Jew or a Reform Jew or whatever else- I’m a Jew, and that’s it.
I wish I could be so sure. Perhaps it was my Conservative rabbi who said “You still won’t be Jewish HERE” when I told him about my Reform bat mitzvah that ruined it for me.
It would also be easier, I think, if I was actually in a community with a rabbi who wasn’t Reconstructionist. That’s not really helping me.
Actually, the Reform movement does not reject halacha, it reflects the binding nature of halacha. It does, however, see worth in the halacha, but leaves it up to individual Jews to decide on their level of observance of mitzvot. That can include extraordinarily non-observant people, but that can also include people who individually find the mitzvot–in whole or in part–binding, and choose to live their lives reflecting that personal understanding.
Regarding conversions, it is obviously possible to convert within the Reform movement in a way that would not be valid for Conservative purposes (no mikvah, no hatafat dam b’rit for males, etc.) But many Reform rabbis today suggest that conversion candidates opt to choose Conservative-acceptable conversion rituals. This is part of the Reform movements now long-ongoing trend toward the acceptance of traditional practices as well as common advice to ensure the acceptability of future (Jewish) legal affairs. But it’s also part of an agreement between the two movements.
If the Conservative movement didn’t accept (Conservative-)halachic Reform converts, Reform could turn around and not accept Conservative converts–or even Conservative Jews–on the same grounds you suggest above (because of “inacceptable” opinions about mitzvot.) Thus, to preserve good inter-denominational relations–especially in an era when the number of Conservative Jews is stagnant vs. Reform–Conservative accepts most Reform converts.
It is also worth noting that while the Conservative movement considers the mitzvot binding, it takes a far less strident stance about it than do the Orthodox movements. The Conservative movement knows that most Conservative Jews don’t follow all the mitzvot, and campaigns to get people to gradually adopt more mitzvot are common. Seen in this light, the actual ritual practices and levels of observance of Conservative and Reform Jews are not that divergent.
I’m a fairly typical example of how a Reform Jew can “convert Conservative.” I worship at a mainstream Reform shul in Chicago, but my conversion rituals met Conservative halacha and were performed at a mainstream Conservative synagogue also in the Chicago area–I sat before a beit din comprised of both Reform and Conservative clergy, I underwent hatafat dam b’rit performed by a Conservative mohel, and I immersed in a Conservative mikvah witnessed by a Reform rabbi. As a result, I can join any Reform or Conservative congregation affiliated with their national movements.
(In fact, I’ve recently been considering attending morning minyan at a major Conservative shul in town, and I would be counted in the minyan if I went.)
What I mean is that if you agreed with Rambam’s 13 principles of faith and some sort of normative halacha, you could find streams of Modern Orthodoxy that are very open to women’s role. For example–the Israeli yeshiva Migda Oz or some Shira Chadasha communities, who call themselves Orthodox and practice liberal ways. What if you move to such community or affiliate with such rabbis? Would conversion be denied if you affiliate with an accepted left-wing (i.e., nearly conservative-like) group in Orthodoxy?
who call themselves Orthodox and practice liberal ways
I sense you are against these?
Well, it would depend. I know that there are some Orthodox rabbis who aren’t affiliated with Shira Hadasha or HIR or whatever and still aren’t opposed to women having a more open role (though obviously their positions on women’s ritual roles would vary). But to what extent affiliating with such rabbis would put me on a blacklist (particularly with the RCA, I guess) is yet to be seen.
Would conversion be denied if you affiliate with an accepted left-wing (i.e., nearly conservative-like) group in Orthodoxy?
I could always convert with their rabbis if that ended up being necessary due to blacklisting.
Actually, the Reform movement does not reject halacha, it reflects the binding nature of halacha. It does, however, see worth in the halacha, but leaves it up to individual Jews to decide on their level of observance of mitzvot
Right. Sorry if I implied I thought otherwise.
But many Reform rabbis today suggest that conversion candidates opt to choose Conservative-acceptable conversion rituals.
This could be because of my experience with talking to Reform rabbis about conversion, and I did ask directly once, but I was under the impression that (1) kabbalat ol hamitzvot was an essential part of Conservative conversion and (2) the definition of Reform is that halacha is not binding. I suppose a candidate could inform the beit din that he intended to accept halachic authority, but that would still be a problem because (a) Reform synagogues don’t have the means for someone who is fully observant, and (b) the candidate wouldn’t have been informed and educated by his rabbis of the various implications of accepting halachic authority, so when he accepted the yoke, there’s no real way of gauging what that actually means.
I believe that they do it, though.
the actual ritual practices and levels of observance of Conservative and Reform Jews are not that divergent.
I know. That’s one reason I don’t especially wish to convert Conservative.
I sat before a beit din comprised of both Reform and Conservative clergy, I underwent hatafat dam b’rit performed by a Conservative mohel, and I immersed in a Conservative mikvah witnessed by a Reform rabbi.
Interesting. Wow, they really are making a team effort.
No no I’m not against liberal-Orthodox rabbis/communities. Just thought you painted the demography of Orthodoxy as too black/white with regards to their views towards women and that you might be able to have the cake and eat it too–you wont find a minyan for you to lead if you want to be Orthodox, but you can find communities extremely sensitive to these issues and trying to progress as much as possible within the bounds of halacha.
Just thought you painted the demography of Orthodoxy as too black/white with regards to their views towards women
Oh, OK. Yeah, probably. Still, with everyone telling me I “better watch out” and “watch what I say” (see the New Voices comments, for example), my first tendency is to assume that, well, Orthodoxy and me inherently won’t mix (something I didn’t go in thinking).
Thanks for keeping me hopeful.
But you didn’t convert Reform- you had a bat mitzvah, which is an affirmation of your Jewish status in the Reform community. They’re two totally different things, and I think you’re making a mistake by conflating the two. No Conservative rabbi would accept you as Jewish on the basis of a Reform bat mitzvah that was predicated on your patrilineal status, because as we all know, Conservative Judaism doesn’t accept that patrilineal descent is enough to qualify as Jewish. If you had a Reform conversion (mikvah, beit din, et cetera), that’s a different story- there are responsa from the RA that go into the details, and the crux is that if the conversion included mikvah and (if applicable) brit milah/hatafat dam brit, it’s a valid conversion. If it didn’t include those things, the responsa encourage sensitivity in discussing the issues with the convert, but make it pretty clear that you can’t count them in a minyan, give them synagogue honors, et cetera.
I always assumed a basic acceptance of halacha’s authority was also in order.
I guess I mentally put that under “beit din,” since that was what happened at my beit din, though I suppose when talking about the Reform movement, I can’t assume that that would be the case. I think it would come down to how things were worded and understood by the convert at the time of conversion; I know of some people who have had to attest to an acceptance of the mitzvot in the context of a Reform conversion and some who have not. And looking at the Reform approach, it would really be a person-by-person question of how they understood halacha’s authority at the time of their conversion.
In any case, you’re right: your community is not helping you, and I think you’re either going to have to figure out a way to deal with things as they are where you are now or move to a place where you actually can find the kind of community you want. Based on what I read here, you sound completely miserable where you are now, and I have to question whether it’s really worth it to stay there and finish up when all it seems to be doing is helping you get more agitated, bitter and generally frustrated with both the situation and a majority of your fellow Jews. I mean, is this really helping your ahavat Yisroel or middos or whatever? I’m thinking not.
As far as being sure about your identity, an Orthodox conversion isn’t magically going to mean that you’re accepted by everyone, either. What happens the first time you run into a Syrian or Yemeni Jew who tell you you’re not Jewish? Or when you come across someone who just doesn’t accept the idea of conversion, period? Go back and get another, even more stringent conversion? Look into a geirut l’chumra? Eventually you’re going to have to reach a point where you’re secure in your own identity and satisfied with the kind of conversion you have. For me, that was Conservative. For you, it may be Orthodox, and that’s fine, but there will always be someone around to say, “Well, I wouldn’t accept you as a Jew.” Especially if you plan to operate in even Orthodox spheres that tend towards womens’ participation in services and ritual life.
It’s worth nothing too, being Jewish is hard. It’s controversial even within the denominational silos. It’s not easy. There are always disagreements, and I don’t know if anyone ever feels perfectly at home on every matter of halacha and ritual within the walls of their own shul, much less their wider community or denomination. (For example, my movement–Reform–and my shul both talk about exploring traditional rituals and levels of observance, but you have to overcome quite a lot of knee-jerk pushback in Reform communities to actually adopt them.)
Don’t make more out of this that is really there, and absolutely don’t feel bad for making the decision to choose the stream of Judaism that is right for you. If it were right for me to be Orthodox, I would be. If it isn’t right for you to be anything else, I don’t want you to be anything else because you wouldn’t be happy–and your relationship to Hashem would be conflicted. For what it’s worth, don’t worry about everyone else feelings in this one instance, be mindful of your own.
there are responsa from the RA that go into the details, and the crux is that if the conversion included mikvah and (if applicable) brit milah/hatafat dam brit, it’s a valid conversion
Really? Do you have any sources? Of course, I could just look on my own…
I knew that they did it, but I have my own reservations. I would like to see what the RA has to say about it though. Our Reform rabbi said this, but since she also told me her beit din included an open-book take-home test, I was a little skeptical.
the responsa encourage sensitivity in discussing the issues with the convert,
Hehe. My rabbi didn’t read that one.
I have to question whether it’s really worth it to stay there and finish up when all it seems to be doing is helping you get more agitated, bitter and generally frustrated with both the situation and a majority of your fellow Jews. I mean, is this really helping your ahavat Yisroel or middos or whatever? I’m thinking not.
You’re right. But I’m a junior already—I’ve already transferred twice (and they’re giving me a full scholarship); I can’t do it again, can I? That’s a real question. I think you’re picking up on something.
As far as being sure about your identity, an Orthodox conversion isn’t magically going to mean that you’re accepted by everyone, either.
True. I think I’m going to draw the line with people who think women’s tefillah groups make a congregation Conservative. That way I can tell they’re speaking simply out of emotion.
Or when you come across someone who just doesn’t accept the idea of conversion, period?
The person mentioned in that link disgusts me..for the record, I would have said what you commented that you would have said.
I don’t know if anyone ever feels perfectly at home on every matter of halacha and ritual within the walls of their own shul
I’m glad you said that, because someone implied recently (I don’t remember who, it was one of you guys) that I didn’t “seem at peace with my decision.” It’s true! I’ll never be “at peace;” this word is foreign to me.
absolutely don’t feel bad for making the decision to choose the stream of Judaism that is right for you
Thanks.